Curse

lyra_song · Nov 01, 2007, 03:27 AM // 03:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sleeper Service

I dunno are you deliberately missing the point? Toons do not have a "life" other than what we make them do, they dont go on binges on their own or eat candy on their own, they do not FEEL this effect or spend the TIME required to gain this effect: its the player.

No, i get the point.

I dont agree with it. Thats why were having an argument.

At the end of the day, I dont think the game should change to cater to specific players complaints which stems from not wanting to play the content in the game.

Snow Bunny · Nov 01, 2007, 03:34 AM // 03:34

Give these whiners their benefits, but don't give them the title.

At this point, who cares.

Sleeper Service · Nov 01, 2007, 05:30 AM // 05:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

No, i get the point.

I dont agree with it. Thats why were having an argument.

At the end of the day, I dont think the game should change to cater to specific players complaints which stems from not wanting to play the content in the game.

you...dont agree with it.

you DO think that our toons have a life in-game other than what we give to them.

well that throws any chance of a potentially useful or rational argument out the window for sure.

Its not about playing the content of the game. its about forcing REPETITIVE content on the player for no other use than to what? make the game last artificially longer? the player has done those actions sufficiently to earn that title/perk why force that very same player to go through those mindless motions over and over again. Its just punishing people who want to play other toons.

Thanks for the clever input Snow Bunny. Shame you missed the point but who gives a damm about that anyways.

cellardweller · Nov 01, 2007, 05:52 AM // 05:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loviatar

LETS COMPROMISE

you can display any title any character on the account has accomplished

BUT

it will be a different color from the regular earned title and only the earned benefits affect that character.

example max wisdon/treasure hunter have no beneficial effect on salvage odds/lockpick break odds until those title benefits are earned on that character.

you can flash the title but gain no financial benefit from displaying it

When the point is to remove the unfair advantage currently being given to single character players, this wouldn't achieve anything. The other way round would be fine though - give the effects of the title, but not the ability to display it.

CHunterX · Nov 01, 2007, 10:11 AM // 10:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loviatar

LETS COMPROMISE

you can display any title any character on the account has accomplished

BUT

it will be a different color from the regular earned title and only the earned benefits affect that character.

example max wisdon/treasure hunter have no beneficial effect on salvage odds/lockpick break odds until those title benefits are earned on that character.

you can flash the title but gain no financial benefit from displaying it

Flip-flop that around. I'd rather have the stat bonuses and not be able to show the title. I couldn't give a flying RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO what title is under my characters if I don't get the bonuses from them.

lyra_song · Nov 01, 2007, 01:59 PM // 13:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sleeper Service

Its not about playing the content of the game. its about forcing REPETITIVE content on the player for no other use than to what? make the game last artificially longer? the player has done those actions sufficiently to earn that title/perk why force that very same player to go through those mindless motions over and over again. Its just punishing people who want to play other toons.

Playing any game multiple times is repetitive content because you are doing it again. Geeze...how hard is that to understand. Its not punishing you. You chose to play it again.

Why do want to NOT play it again, if you chose to play it again? Ok, so you only wanna play certain parts of the game, and skip certain parts. That I understand, but theres no game plus mode in GW, sorry (which is something I suggested before actually...).

The fact that the Guild Wars storylines are very linear doesn't help, i would agree, it gets boring doing it the umpteenth time (<---I have 17 characters, so i totally sympathize doing quests, getting to lvl 20, getting armor, weapons, elite armor, elite skills, beating the game over and over and over. I actually have 1 ranger per continent).

The only title tracks which are "mandatory" in any sense are, as I've said before, SS and Kurz/Lux allegiance, because they serve as a barrier, which is no different than having a longer quest tree.

If you are gonna complain about that, lets complain about the whole quest tree in its entirety, not just parts.

A skilled player can pretty much steamroll this game. I could argue that every quest, every mission, everything is mindless, so why not just skip all of it? Why do quests? Why do missions? Why do anything? I've done it all before!

Would this make you happy:

Make a new char, that char has access to everything youve done before, maps, titles, zones, outposts, all quests youve done, all skills youve earned, instant lvl 20 with all attribute points and secondaries unlocked.

The character doesnt have to do anything.

Would that be more suited to your style of gameplay? Would you even consider that "gameplay"?

freekedoutfish · Nov 01, 2007, 03:19 PM // 15:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

Playing any game multiple times is repetitive content because you are doing it again. Geeze...how hard is that to understand. Its not punishing you. You chose to play it again.

Why do want to NOT play it again, if you chose to play it again? Ok, so you only wanna play certain parts of the game, and skip certain parts. That I understand, but theres no game plus mode in GW, sorry (which is something I suggested before actually...).

The fact that the Guild Wars storylines are very linear doesn't help, i would agree, it gets boring doing it the umpteenth time (<---I have 17 characters, so i totally sympathize doing quests, getting to lvl 20, getting armor, weapons, elite armor, elite skills, beating the game over and over and over. I actually have 1 ranger per continent).

The only title tracks which are "mandatory" in any sense are, as I've said before, SS and Kurz/Lux allegiance, because they serve as a barrier, which is no different than having a longer quest tree.

If you are gonna complain about that, lets complain about the whole quest tree in its entirety, not just parts.

A skilled player can pretty much steamroll this game. I could argue that every quest, every mission, everything is mindless, so why not just skip all of it? Why do quests? Why do missions? Why do anything? I've done it all before!

Would this make you happy:

Make a new char, that char has access to everything youve done before, maps, titles, zones, outposts, all quests youve done, all skills youve earned, instant lvl 20 with all attribute points and secondaries unlocked.

The character doesnt have to do anything.

Would that be more suited to your style of gameplay? Would you even consider that "gameplay"?

I tried that entire arguement! They wont accept it because they considering certain aspects to be "more grind" then others. This being the entire crunch of this debate.

People are perfectly happy to grind some things, but not others!

The reason is because they put some self-worth on one thing and less on another. They then use that self-worth as an excuse to say "well I didnt want to grind for this end result, but I felt pressured into doing it."

The truth being... they didnt need that end result, they just "wanted it".

But they put some importance on it to justify this entire debate. They try to argue that this particular "grind sucks" because they want the end result which according to them is important. They ignore the entire fact that they chose to do that activity to achieve that end result.

No one forced them, no one pressured them and no one lied to them about the end result.

Any importance which people put on armor, weapons, pve only skills and buffs or other results of grind are not important. You can continue playing the game without having these end results.

Im sure maxed out pve only skills will make the game easier or more exciting. Im sure having instant access to elite armor and weapons does make your life easier. Im sure having maxed out status effects can be usefull on a new char.

But none of those end results are important. Important in the sense that you cannot play the game without them!

This entire debate is based around what people "want", not what they "need." This entire debate is based around players trying to argue they are being forced or pressured into achieving these end results either on a vanity level or because their important.

The truth is "Oh that guy has Norn armor and I want it, but I dont want to grind rank 5 to get it."

The truth is "oh that guy has rank10 drawf and I want that, but I dont want to grind rank10 to get it."

It has nothing to do with need.... its all about want!

But you choose to undergo these long, grinding activities to reach that end result. So swallow your pride and accept responibility for your choices. If your now stuck grinding for hours to get something, then its no ones fault but your own.

Anet shouldnt turn the entire title system on its head just to satisfy the wants of a few players, just because they want to look as good as the player next to them.

Wtf Its A Monk · Nov 01, 2007, 03:30 PM // 15:30

/notsigned if i am drunk for 1000 minutes in real life and win an award for doing so(lawl) my brother doesnt get the same award just because we came from the same parents

Sleeper Service · Nov 01, 2007, 03:43 PM // 15:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

I tried that entire arguement! They wont accept it because they considering certain aspects to be "more grind" then others. This being the entire crunch of this debate.

People are perfectly happy to grind some things, but not others!

The reason is because they put some self-worth on one thing and less on another. They then use that self-worth as an excuse to say "well I didnt want to grind for this end result, but I felt pressured into doing it."

The truth being... they didnt need that end result, they just "wanted it".

But they put some importance on it to justify this entire debate. They try to argue that this particular "grind sucks" because they want the end result which according to them is important. They ignore the entire fact that they chose to do that activity to achieve that end result.

No one forced them, no one pressured them and no one lied to them about the end result.

Any importance which people put on armor, weapons, pve only skills and buffs or other results of grind are not important. You can continue playing the game without having these end results.

Im sure maxed out pve only skills will make the game easier or more exciting. Im sure having instant access to elite armor and weapons does make your life easier. Im sure having maxed out status effects can be usefull on a new char.

But none of those end results are important. Important in the sense that you cannot play the game without them!

This entire debate is based around what people "want", not what they "need." This entire debate is based around players trying to argue they are being forced or pressured into achieving these end results either on a vanity level or because their important.

The truth is "Oh that guy has Norn armor and I want it, but I dont want to grind rank 5 to get it."

The truth is "oh that guy has rank10 drawf and I want that, but I dont want to grind rank10 to get it."

It has nothing to do with need.... its all about want!

But you choose to undergo these long, grinding activities to reach that end result. So swallow your pride and accept responibility for your choices. If your now stuck grinding for hours to get something, then its no ones fault but your own.

Anet shouldnt turn the entire title system on its head just to satisfy the wants of a few players, just because they want to look as good as the player next to them.

Fish you have it all wrong. but sure, keep on deliberately misunderstanding or seeing it through that warped vision of yours if you want. Choosing to interpret what people say in a particular manner to vomit it back out with your sauce doesnt say much for your thinking processes.

Lyra its already been stated that we didn't want to unlock the map and missions. i guess you were going for "impact" and not precision in your above post but hey.

Monk, if you are drunk for 25 min on Tuesday wearing a blue shirt at a friends house and 65 min on Saturday wearing a green shirt in a club how many minutes were you drunk in total this week.
your brother has nothing to do with YOUR drinking.

lyra_song · Nov 01, 2007, 03:49 PM // 15:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sleeper Service

Lyra its already been stated that we didn't want to unlock the map and missions. i guess you were going for "impact" and not precision in your above post but hey.

It makes no difference if you asked for it or not, since im asking for it now.

The argument is about convenience and reducing grind and repetitive tasks.

Maps unlocks, missions, gaining skills, beating bosses, doing quests, crafting armor.

ITS ALL REPETITIVE TASKS. The OP not demanding that such things be changed is hypocritical.

Crafting armor per character isnt repetitive?
Capping elites per character isnt repetitive?
Doing missions per character isnt repetitive?
Doing quests per character isnt repetitive?

It's all a grind to me, title or no title. It should be changed for my convenience.

"I've done it before on another character, i shouldn't have to do it again!" - Isnt that one of the main arguments here?

You cannot argue that one task is less repetitive than the other.
All the tasks have the SAME repetitiveness per character.
Its all the same repetitive tasks for all players.
It doesnt matter how much "skill" it requires, PvE is static.

If one class had less repetitive tasks than another, then that would be imbalanced and i would have a massive complaint about it. If one player had more to do or less, then that would be imbalanced as well.

If you want to complain about a repetitive task, complain about the WHOLE thing.

You cant nitpick and choose what you consider repetitive because it suits you, when the nature of the game is repetition if you choose to repeat it.

freekedoutfish · Nov 01, 2007, 04:54 PM // 16:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sleeper Service

Fish you have it all wrong. but sure, keep on deliberately misunderstanding or seeing it through that warped vision of yours if you want. Choosing to interpret what people say in a particular manner to vomit it back out with your sauce doesnt say much for your thinking processes.

Lyra its already been stated that we didn't want to unlock the map and missions. i guess you were going for "impact" and not precision in your above post but hey.....

Did I only mention mapping? Nope!
Did I mention missions at all in that post? Nope!

I talked about pve only skills, status effects, armor and weapons! 4 of the man reasons why people want these titles made account based.

Dont talk about vomitting rubbish up if you dont even bother to read what i wrote myself.

arcanemacabre · Nov 01, 2007, 05:50 PM // 17:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

ITS ALL REPETITIVE TASKS. The OP not demanding that such things be changed is hypocritical.

Crafting armor per character isnt repetitive?
Capping elites per character isnt repetitive?
Doing missions per character isnt repetitive?
Doing quests per character isnt repetitive?

It's all a grind to me, title or no title. It should be changed for my convenience.

"I've done it before on another character, i shouldn't have to do it again!" - Isnt that one of the main arguments here?

Armor and weapons are effectively "account based" since they require only one thing - money. You can earn all the money you want on any character, and use it freely on another. At that point, the only requirement is getting to a city that has max armor/weapons (or just simply passing down a weapon through the account-based storage).

Capping elites and missions/quests are all completely different experiences with different classes. This is not considered grind since they are different tasks. If you choose to delete your monk, and re-make your monk to repeat everything - that's your choice. I would call that grind, but it's entirely your prerogative. You don't need to do anything repetitive in order to experience the game with a different class, since it's all a unique experience.

The discussion is on the repetition needed for these titles. I don't like the repetition at all, and would much rather it not exist at all. This thread is a suggestion that this repetition only be needed once. Honestly, I don't agree with it anymore. I've changed my stance to not needing the repetition at all. The titles can stay, just as they are, just remove any effects and skills from them. That is all.

lyra_song · Nov 01, 2007, 05:59 PM // 17:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcanemacabre

Armor and weapons are effectively "account based" since they require only one thing - money. You can earn all the money you want on any character, and use it freely on another. At that point, the only requirement is getting to a city that has max armor/weapons (or just simply passing down a weapon through the account-based storage).

Why cant i just have it from the get go? How about if i already have crafted a specific armor before with a monk, and made another monk, cant i have the same armor?

Quote:

Capping elites and missions/quests are all completely different experiences with different classes. This is not considered grind since they are different tasks.

Wether or not your job is to kill or to heal, is irrelevant to the final outcome. The bad guy must still die. The NPC must still live. The task remains the same, your function in the team to perform the task may change.

Quote:

If you choose to delete your monk, and re-make your monk to repeat everything - that's your choice. I would call that grind, but it's entirely your prerogative.

I'd go further to say that applies to replaying the game with any new character. It's still the same game. Its still the same missions. The missions and quests dont change with your class (except specific class based quests, but those are also shared if you use them as a secondary of that class).

Quote:

You don't need to do anything repetitive in order to experience the game with a different class, since it's all a unique experience.

I would disagree. same missions, same quests. Same cinemas, same dialogues. its all repetition.

Quote:

The discussion is on the repetition needed for these titles.

And it stems from not wanting to repeat things. Lets remove everything that requires repetition!

Mohnzh · Nov 01, 2007, 08:24 PM // 20:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sleeper Service

Monk, if you are drunk for 25 min on Tuesday wearing a blue shirt at a friends house and 65 min on Saturday wearing a green shirt in a club how many minutes were you drunk in total this week.
your brother has nothing to do with YOUR drinking.

Of course, but this is a role-playing game. You role-play as different characters, not as one character wearing different clothes. That's why they all have different names. Yes, they have no distinction except for what we give them because in the end it is still me at the comp regardless of which avatar is hack-n-slashin'. BUT I want each of my characters to be treated as distinct. I don't want one getting rewards for stuff accomplished by the other. That's the whole idea of role-playing.

If you want to play with lots of different characters, but have all the rewards grouped on one, choose one profession that you really like that has decent armor level/stats (ranger, war, or para), and play the game based on your secondary. You feel like playing a monk today? Switch to all monk skills. Yeah, you lose the divine favor boost, but come on, is PvE really so hard that you need it?

If we call this a role-playing game, then the argument about one guy being drunk does not equal his brother being drunk is still a valid argument.

Sleeper Service · Nov 01, 2007, 08:44 PM // 20:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

Did I only mention mapping? Nope!
Did I mention missions at all in that post? Nope!

I talked about pve only skills, status effects, armor and weapons! 4 of the man reasons why people want these titles made account based.

Dont talk about vomitting rubbish up if you dont even bother to read what i wrote myself.

oh really.

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

This entire debate is based around what people "want", not what they "need." This entire debate is based around players trying to argue they are being forced or pressured into achieving these end results either on a vanity level or because their important.

The truth is "Oh that guy has Norn armor and I want it, but I dont want to grind rank 5 to get it."

The truth is "oh that guy has rank10 drawf and I want that, but I dont want to grind rank10 to get it."

It has nothing to do with need.... its all about want!

'nuff said.

Xx_Sorin_xX · Nov 01, 2007, 08:55 PM // 20:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emik

*Hey look at me... I'm a lvl 4 with Legendary Spearmarshal*

do you actually think before you type?

this constantly comes up as a reason for not making these titles account based, but i just don't understand why. people seem to think that the characters who you achieved a title on deserve the title, and not the actual HUMAN that DID IT.

annoys the hell out of me. flawed logic at its best

freekedoutfish · Nov 01, 2007, 10:01 PM // 22:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sleeper Service

oh really.

'nuff said.

Where did I mention mapping or missions?

wu is me · Nov 01, 2007, 10:34 PM // 22:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

This entire debate is based around what people "want", not what they "need." This entire debate is based around players trying to argue they are being forced or pressured into achieving these end results either on a vanity level or because their important.

Yes i agree with you fish, this IS about want, and we are free to choose whether or not we should make a new character.

A lot of us would like to make more than one pve character, but the fact remains that there must be a choice, given that most of us don't have unlimited amounts of game time, between titles and versatility.
Hence a lot of us are "CHOOSING" not to make a new character.
This proposal is aimed at reducing the barriers to creation of more than one character. This is so that a player would be more inclined to make the "choice" of making an additional character.
Given that a design aim of this game is skill>time, but skill is dependent versatility, it would be in the best interests of maintaining this design goal, to implement the proposal.

I believe i've said this before but Ill say it again in the hopes that you understand

And you say"This entire debate is based around what people "want", not what they "need."" like its a bad thing, and borders on stating the obvious...
Its a game. Nothing is Need. Everything is Want."NEED" is subjective. WANT is objective. You cannot say what we "need", but we damn sure know wat we want.
IMO the only way to define "NEED" in a game is that you have fun, hence "NEED" is logically equivalent to "WANT" and if this entire debate is based around "NEED" then its very well justified isn't it?

You haven't quite made it clear, so ill ask what exacty do u want, ahem "NEED"- ie what makes you happy, about having the the title character based?

oh edit: if you define "need" as anything required to finish the game, and you seem to be saying that anything thats not "needed" shouldn't be in the game. Why aren't you proposing that we remove all skills but frenzy heal sig, we have henchmen after all =P.

zamial · Nov 01, 2007, 11:09 PM // 23:09

why are all of 3 or 4 people arguing this like it is the last beer on earth????

It is going to happen, get over it.

only 5 people want this.

In before close

Sleeper Service · Nov 02, 2007, 12:38 AM // 00:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by zamial

why are all of 3 or 4 people arguing this like it is the last beer on earth????

It is going to happen, get over it.

only 5 people want this.

In before close

oh hurray look you win your +1 post count and get to say your worthless little "in before close" yelp. feel better now?

Lots of people want this, some people are dead set against it. the problem is the reasoning behind it is flawed, selfish and RP oriented.